Posts by Disillusioned JW

36

“Hanging the earth upon nothing”

by FFGhost in

for those of you not up to speed on the latest jw trends, one of the key scriptures the jws are using in field serve-us lately is job 26:7, wherein the writer describes the earth as “hanging upon nothing”.. this text is used to indicate the bible’s “reliability”.

the reasoning goes something like this:.

“see, centuries ago, people thought the world was flat, or was resting on elephants or turtles, or some such nonsense.

Disillusioned JW

I hope Sea Breeze reads this post.

Hey folks the https://www.bibleandscience.com website (called "Institute for Biblical & Scientific Studies") I quoted from (at a different page on the site) is a Christian site which promotes the idea that God created the universe and life, but it isn't the typical kind. Consider the following about it.

The https://www.bibleandscience.com/murray.htm web page says the following regarding its former President, Dr. Arlton C. Murray.

"Arlton Murray received a D. Sc. (Doctor of Science) in 1981 from the Sussex College of Technology in London.

... Arlton Murray started working for the Smithsonian Institute in Washington DC in 1934. He worked for 27 years as Paleo-Osteological preparatory and field collector, Division of Vertebrate Paleontology. Some of the fossils he helped prepare are still on display. On one expedition he went to Panama to help excavate a giant ground sloth, megatherium.

... He was Curator of the Museum of Earth and Life History in Lynchburg, Virginia for four years. During this time he helped excavate an allosaurus.

... Dr. Arlton Murray has met most of the leaders of the creation science movement. He was with Carl Baugh when he was looking for dinosaur and human prints in the Paluxy River near Glen Rose, Texas. Dr. Murray secretly made a cast of one of the supposed human footprints and took it to an expert who said it was not a human print. For more information see The Paluxy Dinosaur/"Man Track" Controversy. After 75 years of traveling all over the USA and foreign countries to excavate fossils for the Smithsonian and other museums, he has not found one shred of credible evidence that man and dinosaur lived together as young-earth creationists claim. Dr. Murray is very concerned about the wild unsubstantiated claims of young-earth creationists."

The https://www.bibleandscience.com/meyers.htm says the following regarding the Institute's current President, Dr. Stephen C. Meyers. [Note: Dr. Stephen C. Meyers is a totally different person than the intelligent design proponent named Stephen C. Meyer.]

He received multiple theology degrees and he took "Special Courses in Egyptian Studies and Biblical Archaeology from University of Pennsylvania" and "Courses in Archaeology, Geology, Paleontology, and Astronomy from the Wagner Free Institute of Science."

He was a young earth creationist and he "was raised in a strict fundamentalist Baptist church" which thought "Billy Graham was an apostate". He also says the following regarding the very strict fundamentalist colleges he attended in the 1970s. 'Separation from the world was key especially in doctrine. In "secondary separation" one must not talk to someone who associates with someone else who is considered apostate which was most people and organizations unless GARB approved. The result, many pastors and people fight among themselves for who is the holiest, and then separate from them. Believing exactly the right doctrine was the most important thing. There is no room for tolerance. I was refused graduation because I did not believe exactly the same way they believed on every doctrine. I did learn enough Hebrew and Greek to point out their inconsistencies.'

Notice that his experience with a strict fundamentalist Baptist church and fundamentalist colleges is very similar to the experiences that JWs have (and which many exJWs had) with the Watchtower!

He says the following regarding paranoia within fundamentalist Christianity. "The end of the world always seems just around the corner. There are all sorts of government conspiracies, cover ups, and world take over scenarios leading to one world government, the beast, the Antichrist, the illuminati, and the infamous mark of the beast, 666. Some churches have tried to out smart the Antichrist by running up debts, building huge churches, and not planning to pay for them because the end is near, then loosing their property because Christ did not return. Harold Camping proclaimed the end of the world in 1994. Christians were willing to quit their jobs, sell their homes, and send Camping their money. More on Harold Camping."

Notice that many JWs have and some exJWs had the same mindset as those within within fundamentalist Christianity. Notice he said many within fundamentalist Christianity believe in many government conspiracies.

He goes on to say the following.

'I thought the Bible was filled with all kinds of scientific facts thousands of years ahead of its time for example, Isaiah 40:22 mentions the "circle of the earth." My thesis was to show if this was true. My conclusions were the opposite. The Bible is not a scientific book, it is a spiritual book. See Do the Bible and Science Agree?

How old is the Earth?

All my life I was taught that the earth was very young because the Bible said so, and "true" science confirmed it so. Henry Morris was my hero. I never heard evidence from the other side. When I began to study geology things just did not add up. How could the flood have created all the wide variations in the different layers of the earth? How could there be dinosaurs tracks, dinosaur eggs, nests, and young dinosaurs running around in the middle of the flood. Did not the flood destroy all life? How could all the dinosaurs fit on the ark? After careful study of both sides, the geologists had far better answers and evidence. See How Old is the Earth

When I was at the last International Creationist Conference (1998) I learned that Henry Morris' views on the flood were passé, while his son John pushed a new view of surge tectonics.'

Regarding his studies at Westminster Theological Seminary (which he abbreviates as "WTS", not to be confused with "Watchtower Society") he says the following.

'At WTS I knew that I wanted to do my thesis on the phrase “circle of the earth”, and “circle of the heavens.” I spent much time researching these phrases in ancient literature. The key question: Was the “circle of the earth” an amazing scientific statement in the Bible, or was it just a common phrase used in the ancient Near East?

I did not like the answer that my research came up with, but I had to be honest with myself. The phrase “circle of the earth” and other supposed scientific phrases were just common phrases used in the ancient Near East. In fact I had misunderstood their meanings. The ancient Hebrews would never have understood these phrases in scientific terms. I had poured my modern scientific ideas back into ancient Hebrew phrases. Today I see the young-earth creationists, and old-earth creationists pouring their modern ideas back into the scriptures just like I did.

The next key question was: How did the ancient Hebrews understand these phrases? I think a better translation would be the “vault or dome of the earth.” Since Isaiah 40:22 is poetry, the next parallel phrases help us to better understand chug or vault of the earth. It is said to be like a tent that is stretched out over the earth. The ancient Hebrews would not have understood this phrase as meaning a spherical earth. For a detailed study of this see Genesis 1.

All the supposed modern scientific statement in the Bible that I had studied turned out to be just common pre-scientific statements. Many of these phrases indicated a false scientific view of the universe. The Bible mentions the “pillars of the earth” and “pillars of the heavens.” The ancient Hebrews saw the mountains as pillars that held up the earth and sky.

... As I began to read scholarly works outside of fundamentalism, I proceeded to see that these scholarly works were much better, and more in depth than the shallow fundamentalist works. I discovered that the internal and external evidence for the fundamentalist view of the Bible was wrong. Not only was the Bible not a science book, it was not even a historically accurate history book.

Part 3 – The Bible: Young or old earth Creation?

With the foundation of the infallibility of the Bible destroyed, I could now start to accept some of the teachings of science. I was a young-earth creationist who was chopping at the bit to debate anyone who claimed otherwise. I had started young-earth creationist clubs at the UT of Chattanooga and in Philadelphia.

... As I studied the evidence, the young-earth arguments seemed to fall apart. Even Answers in Genesis points out many of these false arguments. See "Arguments we think creationists should NOT use" by Answers in Genesis. Unfortunately, many young-earth creationists still hold to these false arguments.

... I had now plunged from the pinnacle of fundamentalist young-earth creationist to the depths of an old-earth creationist. The arguments for an old earth were too overwhelming.'

Dr. Meyers says he considers the following to be true. "Many of the evidences young-earth creationists reject, are powerful evidences for God and creation. For example, the Big Bang is powerful evidence that there is indeed a beginning to creation, but young-earthers vehemently reject this. They have also rejected Einstein’s theories of relativity, plate tectonics, and radiometric dating." I don't believe the examples he states are powerful evidences for God and creation, but I can understand why he believes they are. At least he is now convinced of the scientific facts and scientific theories. He continues by saying the following.

' Part 4 – Bible and Evolution

I had fallen from young-earth creation to old earth creation, and now I was on the verge of descent into the murky realm of theistic evolution. One key book is “Finding Darwin’s God” written by Kenneth Miller.

I see two major lines of evidence: Geology and Genetics. The first main evidence for me was an old earth with progressively evolving fossils. Humans are not found with dinosaurs, and dinosaurs are not found with trilobites.

Secondly, Genetics seems to be unraveling the mysteries of our origin. We are about only 2% genetically different from chimpanzees. African and Asian elephants are far more genetically different. This is easily explained by evolution, but not creation.

... It seems to me that God used evolution to create life on earth. Did not God command the earth to bring forth or evolve forth life?

So now I have completely fallen to the bottom of the barrel, and I’m in danger of falling out of the barrel into atheism according to fundamentalists. But maybe, just maybe, I have stumbled across the liberating truth that has set me free from the bondage of fundamentalism.

—Dr. Stephen C. Meyers (2003)'

The https://www.bibleandscience.com/bible/books/genesis/geology.htm web page of the site says the following.

"There are many reasons why Noah's flood can not account for all the geology we have. ... According to the Bible all life was destroyed by the flood, yet there are many animal tracks, nests, ripple marks, and erosion between layers.

The flood does not account for the thousands of annual layers of varies, thousands of layers of ice, coral reef growth, evaporates, and many layers of coal deposits (Wonderly 1987). One of the greatest misunderstandings is that dinosaurs and humans lived together, and therefore Noah must have brought dinosaurs on the ark. There were no dinosaurs on the ark. Dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago."

23

Is There Life On Mars?

by LoveUniHateExams in

no, i'm not talking about the david bowie song, i'm asking does life exist on mars?.

opportunity rover (the one before the present one) took photos of strange, puffball-like sphericals seemingly sprouting on the martian surface.. these photos aren't conclusive evidence but it is an exciting area to investigate.. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-9546225/scientists-claim-evidence-fungi-red-planet.html .

Disillusioned JW

Jeffro, regarding the Daily Mail article referred to in the opening (first) post of this topic thread, the title of the article is "Mushrooms on Mars? Scientist dubbed the 'Space Tiger King' claims to have found evidence of FUNGI on the Red Planet - but NASA says they're just rocks". As a result though that article is sensationalist it does does have a disclaimer in that "it says that NASA says they're just rocks". The article says the following regarding NASA's view.

"But scientists at NASA have poured cold water on their claims.

Andrew Good, a spokesman for the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, told leadstories: 'Needless to say, no, this is not evidence of fungi on Mars.

... 'The images that are being posted are from the Opportunity rover, which discovered mineral spherules that were nicknamed 'blueberries' based on their size and shape. Scientists didn't rely solely on visual information to identify them; they used instruments on the rover to measure chemical and mineral information within these spheurles, confirming they were in fact minerals that formed in the presence of water.

'The blueberries are one of the best-known discoveries of the Opportunity mission, something countless Mars scientists from around the world would be familiar with and have studied the data for.

... 'The authors ignore other data that easily disprove their claims; for example, many features claimed to be biological are known to typical martian rocks, sand, dust, and ice that change in appearance due to weather, lighting, or rover interactions. Other features superficially resemble fungi but actually are commonly observed, abiotic features in rocks that occur from geochemical changes or by erosion from wind.' "

The article also says the following.

"Wei, Armstrong and Joseph have been sifting through NASA images of Mars for years and have shared their many dubious 'discoveries' with the world on numerous occasions.

... Joseph has made headlines in the past when he sued NASA in 2014 demanding they examine a 'putative biological organism' which he says he saw in Opportunity rover images.

The alleged organism later turned out to be a rock.

... The researchers point to 'araneiforms', dark channels in the Martian soil, seen by Curiosity, as evidence of black fungi, mold, lichens, algae and other sulphur reducing species.

... NASA has previously stated that these massive araneiforms are the result of the thawing of seasonal carbon-dioxide ice."

23

Is There Life On Mars?

by LoveUniHateExams in

no, i'm not talking about the david bowie song, i'm asking does life exist on mars?.

opportunity rover (the one before the present one) took photos of strange, puffball-like sphericals seemingly sprouting on the martian surface.. these photos aren't conclusive evidence but it is an exciting area to investigate.. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-9546225/scientists-claim-evidence-fungi-red-planet.html .

Disillusioned JW

Jeffro, which news item are you referring to? Are you asking about the Daily Mail article mentioned in the first post of this topic thread? Or are you referring to the one which said "Bacteria could survive underground on Mars for hundreds of millions of years, new study finds"? The latter article was reported by a real online news agency and it gave Astrobiology as its source. A number of other news sources also reported on the same subject. For examples see the following.

- https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earthly-microbes-might-survive-on-mars-for-hundreds-of-millions-of-years/ . It gives some additional details and it says the following. "The study is detailed in a paper published Tuesday (Oct. 25) in the journal Astrobiology."

- https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/conan-the-bacterium-has-what-it-takes-to-survive-on-mars-180981019/. It says in part the following. "The chance of discovering microbial life on Mars might be better than scientists expected, suggests a new paper published Tuesday in the journal Astrobiology. Researchers say there’s a possibility that ancient, dormant bacteria still exist beneath the Red Planet’s surface."

- https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/26/world/ancient-bacteria-mars-subsurface-scn .The article is called "Microbes may have survived for millions of years beneath the Martian surface". That article says in part the following.

'Conan the Bacterium’s genomic structure links chromosomes and plasmids together, meaning the cells stay aligned and can repair themselves after radiation exposure. And if a microbe similar to Conan evolved on Mars billions of years ago, when water still existed on the Martian surface, the bacteria’s dormant remnants might just be slumbering deep in the planet’s subsurface.

“Although D. radiodurans buried in the Martian subsurface could not survive dormant for the estimated 2 to 2.5 billion years since flowing water disappeared on Mars, such Martian environments are regularly altered and melted by meteorite impacts,” said study author Michael Daly, a professor of pathology at Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences and member of the National Academies’ Committee on Planetary Protection, in a statement.

“We suggest that periodic melting could allow intermittent repopulation and dispersal. Also, if Martian life ever existed, even if viable lifeforms are not now present on Mars, their macromolecules and viruses would survive much, much longer. That strengthens the probability that, if life ever evolved on Mars, this will be revealed in future missions.” '

There are also various non-English language news articles which report on the same finding which was published in the journal Astrobiology.

There is also a related article from August 26, 2020 in "New Scientist" magazine called "Radiation-resistant bacteria could survive journey from Earth to Mars". It says in part the following.

' “If bacteria can survive in space, [they] may be transferred from one planet to another,” says Akihiko Yamagishi at Tokyo University of Pharmacy and Life Sciences in Japan.

“We don’t know where life emerged. If life emerged on Earth, it may [have been] transferred to Mars. Alternatively, if life emerged on Mars, it may [have been] transferred to Earth … meaning that we are the offspring of Martian life,” says Yamagishi. If the journey is possible, then the probability of finding life on planets outside our solar system increases, he says.

Deinococcus radiodurans bacteria are naturally very resistant to radiation, because of their extraordinary capacity to repair their DNA when it gets damaged, says Yamagishi. He and his colleagues wanted to investigate whether this might enable them to survive in the harsh environment of space, where levels of radiation – particularly in the ultraviolet range – are extremely high.

Yamagishi and his team sent Deinococcal cell clumps of various thicknesses to the International Space Station, where they were placed on aluminium plates and attached to the outside of the spacecraft for three years. Samples were taken each year and sent back to Earth for analysis.

Within the clumps that were at least half a millimetre thick, the researchers found surviving bacteria – even in the samples that were left outside the space station for three years. “Ultraviolet light in space is so strong and was expected to kill bacteria. We were surprised to see the surviving bacteria within the cell pellet for up to three years,” says Yamagishi.

Although the bacteria in the outer layer of the clumps were destroyed by the UV, these dead cells seem to have shielded the bacteria in the innermost layers, which survived. These surviving bacteria were then able to repair their DNA from damage and could be grown in the laboratory.

... Journal reference: Frontiers in Microbiology, DOI: 10.3389/fmicb.2020.02050 '

36

The question`s GOD beleiver / Creationists ignore or don`t / won`t / can`t answer ?

by smiddy3 in

the common thread of beleivers / creationists of a god creating life is design .. and if something / anything is designed it must have a designer ?.

however this reasoning is discarded when talking about the existence of god.. and if such a being as god somehow existed without a designer why not all forms of life itself as existing on earth ?.

coming into existence without a designer ?.

Disillusioned JW

Yes BoogerMan, atheists (at least some) and theists (at least most Christian theists) do agree that something (someone in the case of theists) has always existed and that it (someone in the case of theists) is eternal. But I don't consider my view to be a faith. For me it is simply the result of simple deductive reasoning upon two well established facts of science. Note the following.

Premise number 1: Energy-matter exists.

Premise number 2: The well established Law of Conservation of Energy-Matter says that Energy-Matter can neither be created nor destroyed (though it can be transformed).

Conclusion: Since energy-matter exists and since it can not be created, energy-matter therefore must have always existed and has never come into existence.

However, it should be noted that some astrophysicists have said the net energy of the entire universe is ZERO (when considering gravitational potential energy as negative energy) and that thus the entire universe could have come from NOTHING.

62

NASA: Humans Back to the Moon

by Gerard in

nasa plans return to moon by 2020

"this vision aims to return humans to the moon, and then to use it as a staging point for a manned mission to mars.

i wonder if jws will be required to canvas those areas too.

Disillusioned JW

https://blogs.nasa.gov/artemis/2022/10/28/teams-on-track-for-artemis-i-rollout-to-launch-pad/ reports the following.

"Teams are on track to roll the Space Launch System rocket and Orion spacecraft from the Vehicle Assembly Building (VAB) to Launch Pad 39B no earlier than Friday, Nov. 4 with first motion targeted for 12:01 a.m. EDT.

... The agency continues to target a launch date no earlier than Nov. 14 at 12:07 a.m. EDT."

23

Is There Life On Mars?

by LoveUniHateExams in

no, i'm not talking about the david bowie song, i'm asking does life exist on mars?.

opportunity rover (the one before the present one) took photos of strange, puffball-like sphericals seemingly sprouting on the martian surface.. these photos aren't conclusive evidence but it is an exciting area to investigate.. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-9546225/scientists-claim-evidence-fungi-red-planet.html .

Disillusioned JW

NASA News: "NASA and ESA Agree on Next Steps to Return Mars Samples to Earth". The article is located at https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasa-and-esa-agree-on-next-steps-to-return-mars-samples-to-earth . The article says in part the following.

'The next step in the unprecedented campaign to return scientifically selected samples from Mars was made on Oct. 19 with a formal agreement between NASA and its partner ESA (European Space Agency). The two agencies will proceed with the creation of a sample tube depot on Mars. The sample depot, or cache, will be at “Three Forks,” an area located near the base of an ancient river delta in Jezero Crater.

... This strategic NASA and ESA partnership would be the first mission to return samples from another planet and the first launch from the surface of another planet. The samples collected by Perseverance during its exploration of an ancient river delta are thought to present the best opportunity to reveal the early evolution of Mars, including the potential for life. By better understanding the history of Mars, we would improve our understanding of all rocky planets in the solar system, including Earth.'

23

Is There Life On Mars?

by LoveUniHateExams in

no, i'm not talking about the david bowie song, i'm asking does life exist on mars?.

opportunity rover (the one before the present one) took photos of strange, puffball-like sphericals seemingly sprouting on the martian surface.. these photos aren't conclusive evidence but it is an exciting area to investigate.. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-9546225/scientists-claim-evidence-fungi-red-planet.html .

Disillusioned JW

Science news article: "Bacteria could survive underground on Mars for hundreds of millions of years, new study finds". The article is located at https://www.livescience.com/mars-microorganisms . It says in part the following.

'New research suggests that signs of ancient Martian life could be out there – or rather, hidden just beneath the Martian surface, safe from harmful radiation.

... As Elton John once sang, "Mars ain't the kind of place to raise your kids; in fact, it's cold as hell." But new research suggests that Martian chill could allow bacteria to survive for up to 280 million years below the planet's surface.

The finding raises hopes that traces of ancient life — or even viable organisms in suspended animation — could be found on the Red Planet someday.

In the study, scientists found that an Earth bacterium, Deinococcus radiodurans, is so resistant to radiation that it can handle the equivalent of 280 million years of the radiation present 33 feet (10 meters) below the Martian surface. The plucky little microorganism, which has been found thriving in nuclear reactors on Earth, could even last 1.5 million years on the Martian surface, which is constantly bombarded with cosmic and solar radiation.

The key to this survival is Mars' dry, cold environment. When desiccated and frozen to minus 110.2 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 79 degrees Celsius) — the temperature of dry ice and the higher-latitude regions of Mars — D. radiodurans "become phenomenally, astronomically radiation-resistant," said study senior author Michael Daly, a geneticist and radiation biology expert at Uniformed Services University in Maryland.'

See also the article called "Caves of Mars Project" located at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caves_of_Mars_Project and see the article called "Martian cave entrances may offer a life-friendly radiation shield" located at https://www.newscientist.com/article/2288037-martian-cave-entrances-may-offer-a-life-friendly-radiation-shield/ . The latter article says in part the following.

"However, images of the planet from orbit have shown what appear to be entrances to caves, and the insides of these caverns could be protected from those harmful rays.

... The consequences of this are twofold: caves may be safe locations for human explorers to hide from the extreme conditions at the Martian surface, and they may also be some of the best places to search for signs of life on the Red Planet. No lander or rover has ever visited a cave on Mars, but doing so would be the best way to figure out whether they really are habitable, says Viúdez-Moreiras."

These reports are great news folks, and they give great support to my idea which I posted a year ago on this topic thread!

36

“Hanging the earth upon nothing”

by FFGhost in

for those of you not up to speed on the latest jw trends, one of the key scriptures the jws are using in field serve-us lately is job 26:7, wherein the writer describes the earth as “hanging upon nothing”.. this text is used to indicate the bible’s “reliability”.

the reasoning goes something like this:.

“see, centuries ago, people thought the world was flat, or was resting on elephants or turtles, or some such nonsense.

Disillusioned JW

1 Samuel 2:8 and Job 38:4, 6 are some more verses about the foundations and/or pillars of the Earth. https://www.bibleandscience.com/bible/books/genesis/genesis1_pillarsearth.htm says the following. 'In Ugaritic we have seen that there are two mountains, trgzz and trmg that bind the earth. Gibson says that these twin mountains were founded in the earth-encircling ocean, and held up the firmament, and also marked the entrance to the underworld (1978, 66). The mountains are said to bind the earth. This may indicate that the mountains surrounded, and supported the earth as well as confine the netherworld. The mountains were seen as the foundations of the earth, and the support pillars for the heavens. The Hebrews probably held a very similar view as the verses above indicate, as well as later Hebrew writings. So the phrase "pillars of heaven" and "pillars of earth" are referring to the same mountains. One emphasizes the height of the mountains holding up heaven, the other emphasizes the depth of the mountains that hold the earth firm.'

Job 38:17 (1898 ARV; 1901 ASV) says "gates of death" and "gates of the shadow of death"

Job 38:22 (1898 ARV; 1901 ASV) says "treasuries of the snow" and "treasuries of hail"

36

“Hanging the earth upon nothing”

by FFGhost in

for those of you not up to speed on the latest jw trends, one of the key scriptures the jws are using in field serve-us lately is job 26:7, wherein the writer describes the earth as “hanging upon nothing”.. this text is used to indicate the bible’s “reliability”.

the reasoning goes something like this:.

“see, centuries ago, people thought the world was flat, or was resting on elephants or turtles, or some such nonsense.

Disillusioned JW

Thank you FFGhost for the list you provided of verses where the Bible's description of the Earth conflicts with scientific accuracy. However, the TNIV Bible (and most likely the latest NIV translation of Bible) does put most of those verses in poetic format, thus I do think most of the verses are poetic. However, despite the poetic nature of most of the verses you are correct in saying the cited Bible verses are expressing ideas of the Earth which disagree with scientific truth.

Readers: Note that some of the cited verses are explicitly stating that Yahweh God (Jehovah God, the LORD God) himself stated what is said in the verses. Those particular verses are not merely saying it is the idea of a human character in the biblical books or the idea of the human writer of the biblical books, but rather the actual statement of the biblical god himself. That is important to keep in mind as you evaluate the degree of accuracy of what the Bible teaches regarding the structure of the Earth, and thus also regarding even the claim of the existence of Yahweh God.

truth_b_known you are correct in what you said about the ancient Jewish cosmology. What the illustration provided by you says of the ancient Jewish idea about the structure of the Earth (including of Sheol) and the visible heavens (sky), and the location of alleged divine beings (whether those the Jews believed or whether those the pagan neighbors of the Jews believed) was also the idea of ancient non-Jewish peoples of Mesopotamia. That is mentioned in various scholarly publications, including in the 1991 edition of the NAB Bible (a Catholic Bible). The "Saint Joseph Edition", "Illustrated", of that Bible edition, in between the page numbered 4 and the page numbered 5 of the OT section, has a page with an illustration and a description of the illustration. The title of the illustration and its description is called "The World Of The Hebrews". The last sentence of that description says the following. "This was the same prescientific concept of the universe as that held by the Hebrews' pagan neighbors." That Bible edition is where I first learned that concept. That concept was a shock to me, since I was still a Bible believer at the time.

Because of the above, the verses cited by FFGhost, including the verses which are poetic, are literally stating what the Jewish biblical writers of those verses believed to be part of the structure of the Earth. For example, where they say the the Earth has a foundation and pillars they mean the Earth literally has both a physical foundation and physical pillars!

Diogenesister you are very correct in all of what you said about the Ancient Hebrew word (at Job 26:7) meaning "circle" and of the Hebrew word which means "sphere" or 'ball', and that if the writer of Job 26:7 had sphere/ball in mind he could have easily used the Hebrew word which had that meaning.

Readers: If the writer of Job 26:7 had the specific meaning of sphere/ball he should have used at Job 26:7 the specific Hebrew word which has that meaning, yet he didn't use that word at Job 26:7.

36

The question`s GOD beleiver / Creationists ignore or don`t / won`t / can`t answer ?

by smiddy3 in

the common thread of beleivers / creationists of a god creating life is design .. and if something / anything is designed it must have a designer ?.

however this reasoning is discarded when talking about the existence of god.. and if such a being as god somehow existed without a designer why not all forms of life itself as existing on earth ?.

coming into existence without a designer ?.

Disillusioned JW

BoogerMan, Energy-matter never came into existence, but rather has always existed. It can be transformed (for example some energy can be transformed into matter, and vice versa), for scientists have seen it take place and have done it (such as in nuclear fusion and nuclear fission reaction experiments). Energy-matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Even the big bang did not create/make energy matter. It did transform much energy into matter, but the sum total of energy-matter did not change. Thus as far we can tell from our study of physics, energy-matter is eternal. In that since energy-matter has one of the characteristics which the alleged creator/designer god has, namely no beginning and no end, namely eternal existence. Energy-matter is frequently detected by humans but no God has ever been detected by humans. It thus does not require faith to be convinced in the existence of energy-matter in place of being convinced of the existence of God.